My Bullshit Friend Anna
“Everything is copy,” said screenwriter Nora Ephron, a maxim passed down from from her mother, the kind of self-assuredly defeatist maxim that Jewish parents love telling their children.
That shouldn’t be confused with putting everything in your copy. The work of good copy, I have learned, is to take everything unnecessary away.
Though the decision about what is necessary is where you can find a lot of the bullshit.
I’d like to introduce you to my bullshit friend, Anna Hetzel. Anna (pronounced like any three year-old Frozen fan would say) is a copywriter and community builder who runs the brand Strange Birds.
I met Anna at a conference in September, after spending the whole week networking, tossing around ideas, and wearing out my company’s per diem on breakfast burritos. Yet something about meeting Anna reminded me that there are more ways to do a conference.
I was wearing a bomber jacket and ball cap. Anna was wearing a Hawaiian shirt and glasses. Neither of us were wearing our conference lanyards.
We locked eyes (like they do on Netflix) and something about that moment told me we were going to have a conversation.
It didn’t take us long to get into our mutual and individual nerddoms: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, conference gossip, and opinions about the conference.
This is not that conversation. This is another conversation we had a few months ago on Google Meet that has taken me an unforgivable amount of time to edit. Instead of traditionally nerdy things, we discussed existential things like who are we really online? What are the levels of persona that we have to play in various parts of our lives? And who are we in conversations with the loved ones?
AH
If we want to just get into it, this is exactly why I tell all of my clients that they should hire me to do brand messaging, because brand messaging is like, no matter what room you walk into, you're Sam. But depending on the room you walk into, you're different versions of Sam. But you have to know who Sam is first. You know, what different versions of Sam should show up to the party.’
SZ
I definitely want to get into that because that was a beautiful, beautiful way of putting it. First, actually, I'd like to take a step back, because the first thing that I think is interesting of our friendship is that it's new. I've known you for less than a month.
AH
We could probably say six or seven hours.
SZ
But what's kind of interesting about our friendship — and this is like something that I think is something I have experienced a few good times in my life — where we were both at a conference and we were both kind of taking a break from the conference around the same time. And we just made eye contact and just sort of sat down and started talking.
AH
I took my lanyard off, so no one would recognize me.
SZ
So it was almost like you were taking off a persona by by taking off your lanyard. In taking off your lanyard from the conference, you were hoping actually that nobody would recognize you because you wanted people to not bother you.
AH
There's something about the group identity of having a lanyard at a conference. And especially at a conference, like the one we were at, a lot of people are like, "I'm gonna meet lots of people and network!" And I didn't want to give someone that opportunity if that was the goal of their conversation. The reason why I was like, Yeah, I'll talk with you is because that wasn't the goal of the conversation. And it was very clear from the outset. Right? It wasn't like, "What do you do?" And like, "What about this?" We dove straight into nerdy shit.
SZ
I don't know how that happened.
AH
It was because you asked me what I was reading and I was reading a book about Wonder Woman.
SZ
I don't think we even talked that much about Wonder Woman. We sort of went straight into talking about The Silmarillion.
AH
Yes.
SZ
I don't even know how that happens. And I think that in a way that says something about bullshit. One of the things that I've noticed about myself and the friends that I make in the world is that a very important bond I have with other human beings is recognizing the same bullshit. And in a way with the both of us sort of being free of our lanyards and sort of not wanting to talk about whatever was going on at the conference, there was just a mutual recognition of "Right now I don't want to do this bullshit, and I want to talk about real stuff. And that real stuff is orcs and elves and dragons and wizards."
AH
Yes, and this is why we became friends. And I think -- am I allowed to interrupted in this?’
SZ
Please. Of course. Yeah.
AH
Okay. I'm approaching this differently than I would a podcast interview. Is that okay?
SZ
Yes, that is okay. We're not beholden to the Podcast Treaty of 2022.
AH
Usually like podcast etiquette is you really, really wait to let the person talk out their whole idea. And it can be tiring, because I'm just — I'm the personality of like, oh, sometimes I have a hard time waiting, which is not great. But owning it.
(pause)
I've now forgotten the point of why I interrupted you.
SZ
I think I can bring us back on track here. I think about — oh, go ahead.
AH
So the reason why I enjoyed our conversation so much was the boundaries of competence, right? The borderlands, which is a whole other conversation. Too often in quote-unquote business situations, people don't know how to relax outside of that persona, and show just a little bit more of themselves. So when I meet people in any networking scenario, I don't give a fuck what they do. I don't, I never ask them what they do. I always ask them what they do for fun, because they care about that more. I think we talked about that a little bit in our conversation. And the amount of times I have to remind them that they like kayaking (it's usually kayaking) is saddening to me.
SZ
I love what you started saying about how you actually talk to your clients about entering a room at a different party.
AH
Because we all have bullshit meters. When it comes to looking at marketing and messaging, we're like, "That's a load of bullshit." And it's usually because there's inconsistencies between one post to another. "They talked about that, but now they're like ... What the fuck?" So helping people understand you have to have the core — and you can show different sides of that core — but it's gotta be like a same message or else bullshit meters are gonna just fire.
SZ
Absolutely. Talk about this idea of a bullshit meter. I think it’s probably one of the most useful skills that you can have as a copywriter. Is that true?
AH
Oh, yeah. Because it helps me to see what not to do. One of my favorite questions when I'm doing my onboarding of new clients, when I give I take them through like a two-hour questionnaire where I just pepper them with — "pepper"? Why do we say "pepper"?
SZ
Because it feels like were cooking. And that makes it feel like we're on a TV show.
AH
But why not salts, or sauce?
SZ
Pepper is more fun than salt.
AH
So one of my favorite questions that I ask clients is, "What pisses you off in your industry?" Like when you see shit and you're like, "I'm never gonna do that. I hate it when people do this. Absolutely not." And I just let them rant for five minutes. That's them telling me what their bullshit meter is. And my job as a copywriter is to write to their bullshit meter. I make sure whatever I write is actually backed up by what they actually offer. And not just sell snake oil. There was a presentation at the conference we went to that had a really fucking awesome title. It was great. It brought people in. But nothing about that presentation was actually about the title, and a lot of people left that presentation going, "Wow, that was great! I'm sold into this idea!" And I was like, "I'm walking away angry because I came for the title, and it was, like, one bullet point of your entire presentation." Anger is not the wrong word. But I walked away with a lot less trust in that individual because I have the copywriting bullshit meter of, "Oh, I saw what you did. Oh, that was your hook. But you didn't fulfill it." So it's important to have a hook and then actually fulfill the hook and not just be like, "Fancy! Shiny! Click on this!"
And then it's like, no one needs to read this. The expectation is what's important.
I'm just rambling now! Is this helpful?
SZ
No I hear that. And I remember I remember the session that you're talking about, without naming names. And I remember hearing you say that and being like, “Huh, I didn't I didn't see the same bullshit that you saw.” But I was very interested in your take on it.
AH
Right. And what my bigger thing is, is the ripple effect that that would have. Part of what this person was teaching was how to get people to engage in your content. And for me, I'm like, as a copywriter, we need to pitch people into what you're actually selling. There is a lot of data on the tactics that this person didn't even go into but that I've studied deeply. And it's pushing some direct response copywriting tactics that I think are really harmful in the greater marketing world. And that is what made me frustrated because I saw it working. And then people are gonna go repeat that. And then there's gonna be folks that are like, this is absolutely not what you said you were doing. And I'm frustrated now.
SZ
I appreciate your strong feelings about this because it it shows a real attentiveness and a real dedication to your craft. Have you always had a sensitive bullshit meter?
AH
No. I think it's something that I had to learn. When I was a wee one, I trusted everyone immediately. I still do. And I had to learn the hard way that, yes, maybe my first response is trust, but then my second should be to question. I believed everything what everyone said. Then, when I got more into high school age, I was like, “Oh, wait, now I'm being hurt. Now my expectations that I've had of this person are unbelievably broken and irreparable because I dove in with such blind love and trust, you know, that's what growing up sometimes looks and feels like. Part of being a human is you get you get hurt you learn from it. You reflect and then the next time you have an interaction that's in your mind going forward.
SZ
I'll tell you the the moment for me, where I think I realized that I had a bullshit meter. It was also in high school. I grew up in a relatively small town in Massachusetts. And not very diverse at all. But people seemed nice, you know, more or less. 2004 was the year before I graduated high school, and it was also the year that George W. Bush was reelected. And my town was one of the few towns in Massachusetts that voted for him. And I remember going to a theater class that day and thinking this is a man who has lied to everybody. And everybody knows that he's lying. And yet everybody in this town is 100% okay with that, and I was at a theater rehearsal with all these dirty commie liberals. We were all just really sad. Our director was just like, “I'm sorry, everybody. This is just a really sad day. And we're gonna do what we can with this day.” That was the moment when I realized that people do not act upon a common mutual human interest, and people more or less are willing to accept some pretty nasty bullshit.
AH
Because it's what's easy, I think. I also I grew up in a town of less than 100 people. Like, when I was growing up we got our first stop sign. I went to a high school that has Drive a Tractor to School Day. Like, deep country Ohio. I was one of two democrats and my whole high school. The, the gay population was super high there.
SZ
Gay Straight Alliance, there were two people? One was gay, one was straight, and they work together.
AH
That’s actually exactly what it was. And growing up, I was extremely religious. I gave a sermon when I was in fifth grade, which shocks everyone that I know now. Once I started asking questions, there was such fear. And I think that, regardless of if it's your faith, if it's your political ideology, if it's your own understanding of who you are as a person, it's easier to not ask questions, and not recognize things as bullshit. It's way easier.
SZ
What's something that makes you angry and pisses you off about your industry?
AH
About copywriting? Um …
(long pause)
I'm trying to choose. I think the one that gets under my skin easier than other things is advice from copywriters to other copywriters to raise your rates. Just blanket statement, raise your prices you should be charging more. If you aren't getting more than 50% "nos" you aren't charging enough raise your rates. It's too easy make more money. Go out make six figures. Why six figures? Why not make seven figures? And it's like, y'all want money.
Money needs are super place based. I live in the Midwest. My money needs are radically different than yours because you live in New York City. So, don't tell me I need to raise my rates in order to pay my mortgage. I'm freakin fine. Two, that's not the only thing to do to build your business. Like, they're so focused on how much they're charging and not focused on how you’re treating your clients. What is the client experience like? What are your retention rates? Are you actually going out and getting feedback? Are you thinking about all of your business rather than just the numbers? Because from my experience, if you just focus on the numbers bit, you're gonna fall into a pit of fucking despair, because it will never be enough.
SZ
I think before you set the value on anything, you have to be very clear on who your audience is, who you're selling to, and then it's still a risk setting a price. But if you're setting that price, are you willing to take that risk? Are they just not going to buy it? Or are they going to call bullshit on your price?
AH
Things are only valuable if we understand their context. Copywriting services are only valuable if the copywriter does the work to place what the end-of deliverable is, in context. I'm writing this article about brand messaging. And the introduction is basically, "Brand messaging. What a snooze fest. Nobody gives a fuck." Because it's so like, whatever. But once you start giving it context, then people are like, "Oh, wait, no, that's really important.” Because it is, it’s just not as sexy as a logo. A well-written website is really important, not just so it looks cool, but so it's a sales structure and tool for you to make your life easier. Starting to add those bits of context in, all of that matters. And I think when people raise their rates, and they don't think about the added context, that's when people call bullshit.
SZ
Do you have a mission statement?
AH
Yes, but don't ask me to say it cause I don't have it memorized. No one ever asks me.
SZ
Could you rephrase it?
AH
No, but I can tell you my purpose.
SZ
Okay, alright.
AH
My purpose is to help people approach business with more boundaries. Everything that I do is a system, and systems create boundaries, and boundaries actually create more flexibility and growth. Brand messaging is a system and it gives people boundaries on what to say yes or no to. Website copywriting is a sales structure. It gives people boundaries on what they're actually fucking selling, and not just throwing spaghetti onto the walls and being like, "That's stuff! Let's go!" Community design, that's giving people a system on like, how they're actually leading the communities that they create.
SZ
I love that your purpose is to help people create boundaries. How long did it take you to develop that?
AH
So I've always been obsessed with boundaries. And I've always thought about website copywriting — which is my main thing, brand messaging, website copywriting — as a way to help focus people. Because if you're an entrepreneur, you're an ideas person. You're like, "I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. I'm do this," which means in the moment, when you're trying to make a sale, you have to choose between, like, 50 different offers of what to pitch to the person. What if you only had to choose between three? That's way different. You're probably going to get more sales.
SZ
Why do you think bullshit language develops in business language?
AH
Because it's desperately hard to be clear. It takes a lot more work than people realize. And so they're like, "Jargon, jargon, jargon words, period." Board gamers have jargon, the queer community has jargon, ultimate frisbee has jargon. There are things that I would say that -- I was like, trying to explain a game and my partner's like, "What?" and I'm like, "Oh, that's right you don't know what that means." So I think the takeaway is, understanding who your audience is. And if you're facilitating a conversation, or if you're in a group meeting, and there's somebody new, level setting. "We're going to use these terms. This is what this means. If you have a question, don't hesitate to ask." And I think that invitation to ask questions isn't given enough.
SZ
It just takes so much time. Anna. Asking people to ask questions and then I have to answer the questions? Come on.
AH
I think bullshit is like a nonstop Juggernaut train. You know, that X-Men character that, once he gets going, he can never stop. And his head kind of looks like a penis? That's what it's like. It sounds like training until someone's like, "Huh? But wait.” Bullshit can be stopped with a question.
SZ
Is there a good bullshit?
AH
Yeah, but don't ask me for an example. I'm sure there's good bullshit. I think. I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna say I don't know.
SZ
Brand messaging is a little bit of mythologizing yourself to a degree.
AH
Yes, absolutely.
SZ
You don't want to lie to somebody you're messaging, like you were saying, you want to show up authentically, but you are slicing and dicing in a certain way and setting boundaries. And that I think, in a certain perspective could be seen as benevolent bullshit. You are creating a view of yourself. That could be seen as bullshit to some people.
AH
So are you saying that — I think I think with this question, I need to understand how you define bullshit, because how I'm understanding your definition of bullshit is anything that's not true. But then I'm like, “Well, what is true?”
SZ
And this is where I think we might we might have to end. I don't know, the honest truth is I don't have a working definition of bullshit, and that's why my newsletter is called *SMELLS LIKE* because it really is just, “You know it when you smell it.” And I think that when I see somebody's website, even a well made website, and I see that their creative coach, and I see that their brand marketer and they see all these kinds of things. There's definitely a level where it's like, "What are they hiding? What am I not seeing here?" And that gets my bullshit meter going. Now, ultimately, I assume this is benevolent.
AH
I don't think that that's bullshit. I think, for me bullshit is like, negligence in the lack of questioning. I've done the research, I've done the development, I've done the refining, this is the website. This is how I portrayed myself. Is that bullshit? If it's like a clear choice that they've made? Or is the bullshit someone who's like, "Bleeh, this is what someone told me to say."
Have you seen The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari?
SZ
Of course I have.
AH
It's an amazing movie. That was my one burning question. I mean, I have more.
SZ
We're goin' deep on German expressionism. Let's go there. One of the things I love about expressionism and the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari is it's so theatrical, right? Like you see, like the when he's walking up those steps and you're like, "Oh, that's a stage.” This is not a movie where I'm supposed to believe that this is real. This is obviously a complete fake. And there is this concept in Brechtian Theater, which is definitely like one of the progenitors of the Caligari School of filmmaking, that tells you that you should be able to see the strings, you should not be fooled into believing that what you're looking at in the story is real. Anytime you see a monster, you should see the zipper, because that actually makes it more interesting.
AH
And I think that's what makes bullshit interesting. Because once you recognize it, and your curiosity is so piqued, that you have to figure it out.
(both pause in awe of the great German expressionists)
